DISCUSSIONS PAGE

my brother messenger micah, I think you are misunderstanding two different concept there. The example you have given has nothing to do with the example I gave .The one you gave referees to the body of Christ and I agree with you but the example I gave is self explaining. You can not put your interpretation into the word of God to fit things your way, Jesus was angry because people were selling and buying in the temple which in that era represent where God present was. You cannot neglect that the present of God can not be felt in certain places and not only in ourselves because that means that the present of God can't be felt in any physical place. God remains everywhere we allow his present to be. I think if you agree with me to continue our discussion aside this forum, so that we will not loss the focus of the topic that our dear sister posted.

God bless

My dear brother Emmanuel,this is the new testament and not the Old testament.If you have read further in that same scripture(or another place of the same incident),they asked him who gave him authority to do what he is doing and he said to them,"destroy this temple and i will rebuild it in 3 days" and the bible went on to say that by the temple he means his body.Now Emmanuel ,you can see that the temple is his body,the body of Christ.The same way he got angry at that physical temple is the same way he is doing with the present misunderstanding and misuse of his name in what we are building today and are calling it his church.Now you see what i mean,Emmanuel,a building is not a church,true living stones being built together by Christ is the true church of God.I didn't say that the building represents a part but it doesn't represent the church at all,the building does not have its importance at all if the true church is not being built,the building is useless to God if the true church is not being built as Jesus has said.As a matter of fact,through out the new testament,no where was it mentioned the need for a building for the church,Are we not selling things in his temple today?We sell his blessings with our obsolete tithes and offerings,are we not selling the supposed revelations we received from God to other Christians (through books and messages-even though he said freely you have received,freely give),have we not turned the church into a money making machine;we are told how we can be rich,build empires,shake the world,financial prosperity and security,all manner of buying and selling going today in the body of Christ except becoming a House of Prayer for all nations.May God open our eyes

messenger micah, it is true that the church is not meant to be rapresented only as a building but the figure of the building has its own importances and if you look both in the Old and New Testament you can see that the figure of a building has his importance. In Matthew 21:12-13 Jesus got angry with the people that were selling things in the temple and he said \\\"My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers\\\". If he called it his house that means that the temple has its importance.

God bless

My dear sister Ruth,thank you once more.Look at this,the street cant be turned into a church nor your house because the church is a people not a place.Jesus said it that the kingdom is not here or there but in your midst,amongst you.The church is a people and not a place.The Church is a spiritual building that Jesus has to build with the true living stones,it is not just when the living stones gather but the living stones being built into a house on the true foundation.My sister,i will make the statement again and i will like you to go through the scriptures to confirm this;feeling the presence of the Lord in a place doesn't make it a church,a church is a people and not feeling his presence in a place.Most congregations with wrong foundations feel the presence of God and most of the time the presence of God is being felt because of some true disciples who are there,who brought the Lord with them and not because of what is being done there or rather the Lord just comes.Jesus,his disciples and the multitude followed him around,he was amongst them but that wasn't the church but he later told his disciples," you will see me,but the world will not",and he said to Nicodemus that they that are born of the spirit are like the wind,you do not know their movement but their effect.Yes feeling the presence of the Lord doesn't prove a gathering to be of the true church but it can mean that some disciples that know and walk with him came to the meeting with him.I know of a young catholic priest in who knows and walks with God,in his meetings,the Lord will be their because of this priest that is his friend,not because the gathering of the true church.The churches that are built on the rock,you have not seen them or heard about them because if you dare see what the true church looks like,you will definitely loose taste for what we call church and present day Christianity,you will never have an iota of satisfaction until you live it's reality.We can be doing our own thing and think that the Lord is with us because what we are doing feels and sound like him; oh that we will give up our lives as living sacrifices unto him and have our minds renewed continually daily.My sister i am afraid that we have believed a lie for a long time that it is hard for us to believe the truth when we see it in the word.About what you said my youthful dream of changing the catholic church;i have come to realize that it is not the just the catholic church that have the same sickness alone but every visible entity called church today are suffering the same thing the catholic church is suffering,are entrenched in the fables and useless doctrines and practices in the catholic church;so my dream then was limited,it wasn't actually my dream but the burning passion of our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,my heart is that the professed Christianity will return to their Lord again,what can i do but to do my part by speaking the truth in his love whenever i have the opportunity.The word of God is the sure word of prophecy but we have deserted the word,may we return to the Living word of God-Jesus Christ the righteous.My dear return to the word,Amen.

well Messenger i thank u again! what u said about the Church...we all know that the Church is not the building itself but the people. and a Church cannot be called a true Church is the presence of God is not there. so your haouse can turn to be a Church, a street can turn to be a Church, everywhere. then you said: "True church is not discerned by the presence of God..." but I think it is the presence of God that makes a church the True Church. for if the Lord is not in the midst of what we are doing as a Church...then we are there for nothing!
about your intention to change the catholic Church when you where 17, that's not something impossible (for nothing is impossible for our Lord, you can still do it now even though you are not part of the catholic Church!
then is true that many Churches are built on wrong foundation but I strongly believe that there are Churches that are build on the Rock.

This is indeed an interesting topic worthy of exploration, I believe it is an homework for us to search the scriptures and see what the bible says about these doctrines; messenger micah please restrict your messages to few lines so that people can really read them not glance through the content. ok? God bless as we ALL research the TRUTH which is God's word.

Shalom

Oh dear Sis,i did not take it in the wrong way,i understood your question.Just that my answer wasn't quite what you expected.Now you are judging with the catholic church you have been in and the church you are in right now.But i am considering the catholic church as a whole and the other named churches.There are many catholic churches that have the presence of God and pentecostal without the presence of God.True church is not discerned by the presence of God,signs,wonders,miracles,healings and provisions because those where exactly what Jesus gave those people that followed him around,he said he cant trust himself on them because he knows the heart of men,he could only trust himself on his true disciples.Let me tell you the truth my sister,anything you can identify wrong with the catholic church,if you look very well ,you will see it in any other church except HIS true church.The catholic church foundation,practices and teachings are not right before God likewise the Pentecostals and any other church with a name;but that doesn't rule out the fact that there are believers in their midst.You said the moment you stepped into your present church,you remained,but i personally got radically saved in the catholic church,but while their, the Lord started showing me things that were wrong that i couldnt even share with my friends lest they say i am challenging the church,as young as i was then,17 years old,i thought i was going to be the one to change the catholic church (what a bogus dream for a boy) and when the Lord asked me to leave i resisted it so much because of this my preconceived dream,as he moved me into the pentecostal,i have also come to see that they are all the same.I am not talking about pastors that are not good pastors,i am talking about pastors as we know them today,when i said that God radically ruined my life last year,this is what i was talking about,he showed me what His church is but i wept because i have not seen it before on earth but i was consoled and comforted that there is a remnant.My dear brethren i do not ask you to agree with me,but if you love the word,when you see the truth,it breaks every stronghold in your heart and you simply believe.Paul wrote to timothy and said that the church is the foundation and pillar of truth;now when you see the true church in the word of God as it should be,most of the doctrines you have been taught will crumble because you will see that they do not line up with heaven.
Now you say you feel the real presence of God in your present church,do you not feel it at home? Cos if feeling the presence of God in a church building proves that it is true church,then our homes (if we feel his presence in our homes) should be the church too,if thats the basis.
My dear my conclusion is not based on whether the people involved are good or bad,it is not whether they have the right doctrine or not but based on the revelation of the word of God concerning his true church.The father has committed all judgment unto the son-The word of God,judge your life and whatever you do by the word,thats why he says you should judge yourself,fall on the rock because if the rocks falls on you and judges you,it will crush you.One litmus test with which to check;" These people who have turned the world upside down has come here",the society and its rulers acknowledged that these people have turned the world ruled by Satan up side down.They didn't call them by any name but these people.Apart from heaven,they are the only ones that knows themselves as church;society knows them as a group of people that are one;not a catholic or pentecostal that meets every Wednesday and Sunday.Is that in your bible?Are you turning the world ruled by Satan upside down?If the foundation be destroyed,what shall the righteous do.Now you understand that scripture,the true church foundation have been destroyed over the centuries,the righteous,instead of restoring the foundation are building on the destroyed foundation.May God open our eyes.......

hmm.. i tahnk you Messernger for what you wrote..but you put the whole thing on a wrong way. i know that there are pentecostal churches that are not built for God and they are on wrong mission, i know that there are Pastors who are not Pastors (you know what I'm talking about). what i mean is: the foundation, the rooles, the believes the dogma of the Catholic church are they wrigth before God?
I was once a Catholic member too, always participating in all tha church activities, till now all the priest in my zone know me and my family.
but when I grew up to a stage i made some research by my self and i realise that something were not right. you have said some of those things already: like worshiping Mary, or praying through the Saints, or decleare somebody a Saint only after his/her death, not be able to marry if you want to be a catholic priest, women can't minister (preach, exhortations..), many things were too countrary to the Word! and when I talked to my priest He told me that I was right!!!!!!! but things has been like this so they can't be changed! i mean my priest was a drunker and he was also smoking and the authorities knew about that but nobody told him anything...
and also the fact that small children are baptize..i believe that babtism must be something that comes from the decision of each one not something imposed by force.
and then for the Holy Cominuion there is a an age from which you can start taking it...i did all those things! and there are soo many other things that i discover while attendig to the catechism..
and the most important thing is that when i was attending the catholic church (i was even part of the choir, and i was the one assisting the priest during service in all the rituals) i dind't felt the presence of the Holy Spirit, nothing of that nature!
and you know i live in italy where the base of Catholic Church is.

for sure there are real believers in their mids but the fact that the foundation itself is not the right one...
the first day i stepped into Zoe Pentecostal Mission i never attended to Catholic Church any more, here i find the real presence of our Lord!

" I will build my Church" the Lord Jesus declares.What does that mean,it means when you(man) start building ,it ceases to be his church.It might have people that are truly saved but so long as you,man is building,it ceases to be the church.In my young life,i have touched the church in its 2 vital denominations today,I was born a catholic,i was a catholic for 17 years,got saved in catholic and then became a catholic charismatic and then a pentecostal/charismatic church.Now that means that there are born again Christians in the catholic church.I said all these to end up with one conclusion,both the Catholic and pentecostal church do not have any differences in God's eyes,they are the same.Amongst them are God's true children,saved and sanctified,but what we see and call catholic and pentecostal church or (all protestant churches-denominations that are not catholic) today are being built by men and not the Lord Jesus thats why i say they are the same.If we read the bible we will see the church the Lord built himself,but what has happened is that instead of reading the bible to see the Lord's revelation,we read it with our preconceived understanding and knowledge which either the catholic or pentecostal church has given to us,thats why we have what we call church today.
Pope means Papa,a man who they call the head of the church,the catholic church.Today in our churches,do we not have people we call Papa?The head of our churches,our own pope,even though these men wont say to you that they are the pope of our churches or the head of our church but thats exactly what they are;Christ is the head of the church,am i right?when you are stopping Christ from being what He should be,you know what the bible calls that,against-Christ,i wont say more than that.We castigate catholics for worshiping Mary instead of Jesus,today we worship our own church more than we worship Jesus Christ;we are repelled at the idea that they have priests that serves as an intermediary b/w the people and God instead of allowing the priesthood of believers,but we have done the same thing by our own pastors(the pastor simply replaced the priest),who are the superstars in the church today,we worship them more than we worship Jesus,they indeed stand b/w us and God.What the pope says is final in the catholic church,today what our pastor says is final,if someone else comes with the true interpretation of the scriptures which against what our pastor have said,that person becomes our enemy,he becomes a heretic which is the same reason why catholic burnt so many people at the stake as heretics just because the preached the true gospel;the catholic pope is infallible,that is he cannot sin,thats the same way we see our pastors that when a man of God sins,many believers go down with him because of how much they trust him more than God.we condemn the catholic church for selling indulgences,but today,go on TV,every minister will tell you how they can sell you God's blessing when you sow a seed,go to churches today,they tell you how you can buy God's blessing with your obsolete tithe,how you can sacrifice this and that to get a breakthrough from God.When a Muslim sees that Jesus Christ is God,he fights to believe the fact that what he has believed all his life is wrong,there is a big blow to him,that what he has fanatically lived to believe and preserve with his life is a big lie.Sincere believers,sincere living stones,instead of being built together into a house for God ,have been packed together into a house built by man.When i was a catholic,anyone that told me that i was wrong ,it aggravates me,even as a catholic charismatic ,it was the Lord's help that moved me from their cos i was ready to die a catholic( i do not condemn them- i have many Godly friends amongst them),but today i see the systems of men building the church instead of the Lord Jesus building the church.Jesus says,woe is you when men speak well of you,cos that is how they did to the false prophets.That is the word of Jesus,did he really mean that?We have believers scattered all over the nations but few churches we have,instead of church of God,we have church of men.Please my brethren,that you bought a land on which you are to build a house,you bought bricks with which to build it and packed it on this land,does it make it a house?NO,it must be professionally built by architects,building contractors and builders and when they finish building,they move on and the owner of the house occupies it.So how do we think that God's house can be built without spiritual men trained in the wilderness of life by the Lord Jesus,who knows exactly his eternal purpose.Now gathering believers into a church building doesn't make them a church,the church can only be built by Jesus himself through men (Apostles,prophets,Evangelist,Pastor-Teacher)that he has equipped with his heart and eternal purpose,and they are servants and not masters.The true church do not have form nor comeliness that we should behold it.The same way the religious world treated the true church,is the same way we will treat them.The true church is not popular,if you look for it,you will not see it,it is not physical but spiritual.if you read my analogy ,you will understand my point;the catholic and pentecostal church and every other church with a name are the same thing before God,they are not the church (but a gathering of believers ,even unbelievers),even though they have believers in their midst,they are not the church Jesus says he will build,the church the Lord is building is hidden from the sight of men.There is no different b/w the two denominations,the believers among them are the children of God,whether they are doing a mission from God is between them and God.We the pentecostal are we truly on a mission from God?Thats a big question that demands an answer too.....
For your information brethren,i am a member of a pentecostal church,do not assume that i am writing this because i am a part of the True Ecclesia,No,I am just sharing the truth that i have seen,and my desire and my prayer is that God will raise his true church in our cities.may he found us worthy to be part of his bride.Please study and meditate the word of God-Jesus Christ the Righteous.....Research what i said if you care brethren...Please brethren,do not keep quiet,correct me if i am wrong,be your brothers keeper..do not be like cain and say,am i my brother's keeper,please correct me,if i am wrong....